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Monday, December 19, 2005

Comments

Krish

I agree with the first and third "flaws". However I wouldn't consider that it is flawed to do the reservations on the basis of caste. There has been ample scientific evidence which suggests that people from underpriviledged society need "extra help" to get into the main stream. Suppose if you consider two kids from the same economic strata but different social groups. Let us say one is from the priviledged section and the other is from the under priviledged section. If you offer the same level of education to these two kids, the one from priviledged section of the society will do well compared to the one from underpriviledged sections of the society (there are exceptions to this law but what I am talking about is the overall trend). This has been researched about and it has been clearly shown that they need the extra help. In such a scenario, giving reservations based on economic conditions rather than social conditions doesn't make sense.

blackpanther

[However the job reservation policy has three important flaws. First, it has a "discriminatory bias against Muslims who do not benefit from such policies". Second, it emphasises caste or tribe rather then income or wealth]

1 - muslims are discriminated, so give muslims reservations. but by same yardstick others are discriminated too. but never mind. have reservation based on religion.
2 - caste or tribe based reservation is bad. why? - because it does not consider income or wealth.

pray explain why muslims must be considered for reservations or how religion based reservation considers income or wealth.

please stop writing nonsense.

Vaibhav

Hi Guys,

I am planning to petition Supreme Court India for this issue, Please read this and if you can sign it.

http://new.PetitionOnline.com/104Amend/petition.html


Best Regards,
Vaibhav

Srikanth Srinivasan

Krish, I think your comments are not only idiotic, but downright fascist. I have seen many people from a `lower caste' perform just as well, if not better, than their `upper caste' peers. Those that don't (from any caste, mind you), well, they don't climb up the socio-economic ladder. That's the definition of `merit'. Look it up, will you?

The remnants of the age-old caste system that exist today is no certain reflection of any person's abilities (this it never was) or economic status (which it definitely was). There are a large number of `lower caste' families that live in affluent homes, own great cars, all the while paying lower fees in government colleges (if they attend a government college), reserving seats for themselves in educational institutions (now in both private & public colleges), obtaining greater representation in locally and nationally elected legislative bodies (courtesy the vote bank that is their caste) and, of course, thanks to people like you, enacting further laws to ensure that they don't have to fight for a goddamn thing based on merit. Looked it up yet?

Everytime I make this argument, there is sure to be one wild-eyed casteist social-justice-touting madman who says, `But the lower castes were oppressed for a 1000 years!' Yes, Mr. Einstein. The `lower castes' were oppressed for a 1000 years by a bunch of upper caste fascists, but the current generation wasn't around then, and therefore, why punish (the current generation upper caste) or compensate (the current generation lower caste) them for it? Do we then claim that today's Germany compensate for the many Jews that were killed in the Second World War as well? The same logic applies.

It's more than a little ironic that a `secular' government is trying so hard to unleash the `caste' beast. Maybe, in a country as polarized as India along religion and caste lines, the very phrase `secular government' is a contradiction in terms.

Venkat

I tend to agree with Srikanth on the term "Secular Government"....why do we really call ourselves secular
Somewhere in an, I remember reading the sentence
In India, secularism does not mean mere separation of religion and state but, the abolition of the practice of untouchability and promotion of castelssness And when I remember the quote, I laugh to myself and think ...."So, thats what a secular state means, and if that is the definition of secularism, then may be the politicians that amend the constitution every now and then should modify it permanently and say 'INDIA IS NOT A SECULAR STATE'.

Mahendra Pratap

Srikanth, I am sorry. I do not fully agree with you.
We are in catch 22 situation. It is not fair for sure to give reservation, but at the same time, our caste system does not give privilege to OBC and SC/ST to do any venture. Imagine, a tea-stall run by a SC guy, there will be no buyer, and it is not his fault. In UP, the Kshatriyas/Brahmins have monopoly in areas like public transporation (ex: Bus service between Varanasi and Ghazipur) and govt. contracts. Do we have reservation for them? Yes, legimated by our social structure. What about the seats in donation college? Do we have any sort of merit system there OR money itself is merit? For 90% of the jobs we just need average persons, so reservations are not going to affect that. (Just imagine all the IT professionals from the donation colleges are doing much better than the their American counterparts in US). I have shares of a company, the owner is grade 8th pass out. That is fine, but he has 5 of his sons and all daughters-in-law as Board od Directors. What do you think? It is a case of merit or just resrevation?
Historically, might is right. (See US policies, Do you protest? Any outcome?). Upper castes in India have everything (forget about few poors), and I do not think the reservation is going to affect their health. Forget about reservation, Do you still think we have a fair system in India? Does a teacher not give favors to a student from his caste? What is the percentage of SC/ST teachers in Indian colleges? Same is true for private industries. How many industries are owned by SC/ST/OBCs?
Rajputs (may be others as well) in UP have ownership on lands in most of the villages. Is it based upon some merit? May be their ancestors acquired that 1000 years back through some fair or foul means, should they still get benefits for that?

Subodh

I know at one student In the Faculty of Management Studies (University Of Delhi)who has procured a fake Schedule Tribe Certificate and despite doing pethatic has got a seat in this reputed institute,this student has paid heavily to get the fake certificate and get the concerned authoirity's record fabricated to get the ST certificate.Stragly he is an upper cast muslim and passout of Cambridge Foundation Srinivaspuri Delhi.
Now can anyone explain me how the resevation system can help the so called oppressed and backward class of india? I know for sure a hefty amount was paid to get the records fabricated for the concerned authority from where the certificate was issued,

Despite the fact that there are no SC or ST in muslim community under the law he could still find and quota under ST catagory

If anyone has any doubts bout the authenticity of the story can check the credentials of the candidate,His name Fahad Asmat Khan passout of Cambridge Foundation School Srinivaspuri Delhi where only affluent rich class people can afford to have their kids admitted,Currently persuing MBA from FMS (DU) under the ST quota,

but i know for sure that nothing is going to happen for in our country all the concessions and reservations are for the rich and mighty though under the grab of Social Justice and upliftment of oppressed and backward class. No place for poor and bright people

In India social Justice really means further upliftment of rich and those who can manipulate the system

Is anyone listening??????

Soumam

Well quite a good debate on Caste Reservations. My personal opinion is that there should be no other reservation other than reservation for physically handicapped person.

I do agree that the lower caste has been an oppressed lot in India for a long time. But reservations are not going to solve problems. Firstly Primary education needs to be improved. Secondly higher education needs to be supported by scholarships for making it available for the poor masses (including those in the higher caste).

A lot of freinds here are talking about the plight of lower caste in states like UP. Somebody mentioned here that if an SC was running a tea stall nobody would buy tea from him? Do you really want me to beleive that? In Mumbai half of the wada-pav walas and the tea stalls are run by lower caste people. But people who eat from them drive mercedes and are very much from the upper caste. Now you might say that it is just the case of Mumbai and may not be true of small towns from UP. That is precisely what I wanted to point out. When you are economically well off you donot bother about caste and other things. What I am pointing out is that once the economic level of the people in India rises then economic sense will prevail over caste logic. You will then be least bothered to find if the tea stall owner is from lower caste.

Also reservation according to me is a hidden form of discrimination based on caste. Given an equal playing feild all deserving people rise to the top no matter what their background is. Merit itself is sufficient and you do not need reservation. We gave reservation a chance for 55 years. Lets give a Quota free education a chance for just 10 years. I feel the results will be quite dramatic and for the good especially for the lower caste.

Rajji Saini

Hello friends,


It is a nice topic to debate up on. but lets be practical.
There is no harm in doing reservation. Lets do it. But...There has to be a criteria for it.
I would like to post few questions here to be discussed.

1.What is the criteria?
2.Why do we keep increasing the percentage of reservation?
3.Since our independence are we able to fulfill all the reserved seats?
4.There are many Civil Servants who belong to lower class. Tomorrow if their children demand for a reservation based on their caste, is it really valid?
5. Why dont we first implement some measurements to fill those seats which are left vacant every year.

Let us try to bring the actual needees to the same level as others are, then think of any thing else if required.
Dont try to snatch the bread from hungry and keep it in the resrvoir to waste it.

Piyush

Can the government just concentrate on providing "quality education" to all and let merit take its own sweet course.
The student welfare programme can certainly take care of down trodden.
and for god's sake if one can not afford a particular course the so called techincal ones at the best institutes then let them not do it or fund it by working before joining such.
and the best argument is already doing the rounds, which seems to so innocent and yet is the most damaging that being these guys are already provided reservations in government (so government is run by dim wits; as if politicians were not enough) why do they need it in private sector.
There is no substitute for merit there never was and there never shall be
Period.

Ajay Bhurat

Increasing the reservations is self endorsement of various governments of six decades that they have miserably failed and have to some how placate the restive oppressed people who now know that they stand cheated. In the era of rapid communication the masses cannot be duped any further. Our country is still struggling with issues like poverty, hunger, housing, education and employment. The remedy of past failures does not lie in reservations. Time lost cannot be retrieved. At least now we should have right policies for the future. Politicians should not fan sentiments as cover up of their failures and Partition India again into Caste Blocks. For Reservations, Government should apply only Economic Criteria for the uplifting benefits to be provided to all Indians alike on set economic parameters. This the government should continue till it is able to provide sufficient infrastructures, needless to say with some time limit – every thing has to be done on a war footing. Six decades have already been lost.With the people's tax money government should see to it that there is no one without a secondary level of education. Various incentive schemes and supportive policies will have to be introduced to attain the objective. With education the problems of caste, creed and religion will disappear. Reservations based on caste will compartmentalise and disintegrate the country. Economic criterion is the only one which is just and fair as far as reservations are concerned. - Ajay Bhurat

m s waldia

It is time that we understood the real meaning of the issue.

Soon it will not be a case of mere discrimination against legitimate fundamental rights of so called upper cast citizens, but a case of PERSECUTION. Hitler had started the same way dividing German society and started a drift that changed the course of world history.

Does parliamentary democracy in India mean that bunch of politicians can kill the legitimate and fundamental rights of a certain section of society and start depriving them?

The constitution of India as it stands now, has lost the ability to protect rights of people who are being persecuted by the state on the basis of cast and religion -i.e. so called upper castes and Hindus!

Is it not the time for petitioning the issue in UNHRC? Is it also not a time to start applying to foreign consulates and demand political asylum on the ground of persecution by the state?

Beware world! If situation deteriorates in India by the action of screwed up Indian politicians then the whole world will suffer due to massive migration of people form India.

SolutionPoint

Whatever the reason, I feel it irrational on part of the Govt. to reserve rights for a section at the cost of another - be it lower or higher.

Our democracy, it sounds, is experiencing dilution. The perpetrators are roaming around, while pushing the common man to debate or war! The game is "survival of the smartest - by hook or crook".

Web Consultant

Alok Sharma

I strongly believe that the time has come to review the existing system of caste based reservation policy in India. The Congress government is just thinking about her votes. The political leaders in the Congress are not at all worried about the growth of the country. This government will try hard to break the strike of medicos. In my opinion everybody must join these medico friends. It is now or never. If we relent now, this government is certainly going to push the idea of reservation in the private sector. If that happens, that will be the greatest disaster for the booming economy of India. MNCs will start pulling out money from India and money and jobs will go to some other third world country.

Rather than caste based, the reservation in India should be based on the economic condition of the people. Give scholarships to the students from the weaker sections. Provide them free nutritious food and medical support. This way only the deserving students will come up and that will be fair. In today system of reservation only the children and grand children of those who received life long advantage of reservation, are reaping benefits. This is not fair.

Alok

abhishek

hi friends,
Think thoroughly, no 1 will get anything y making reservation issue a controversy. We should search 4 it solution rather than its agitation. Indian is caste based & caste system is d unique feature of India, so economic based reservation i.e. class based reservation is impracticable removal of caste based reservation is impossible, but present reservation policy has bn faild 2 gain its ends. So elevation of it i.e. Arjun singh's proposal would b absurdity, so we should modify it. 2 motivate merit present reservation policy must b amended viz must b conditional. How it is possible we have 2 consider it. I m working on solution of present controversy with my own idea. I need mind & ideas of intelligensia of India 2 solve ths puzzle. people want 2 help me, kindly mail 2me on my id abhishek_nema2005@yahoomail.com. I hope we togeher will find out a fair, just & impartial formula of reservation policy.

Sanjeev Kumar

To,
DR. A.P.J. ABDUL KALAM
PRESIDENT OF INDIA

Respected Sir,

Being a part of this nation , I would like to request you as our friends (student of MBBS, Senior and Junior Doctors)are protesting against the move of Honorable Mr. Arjun Singh (Member of Parliament)and the honourable Government.
As far as me is concern, I fully agree with the views of Mr. Ajeem Premji (CEO Wipro), Few Weeks before President of America Mr. Jorge W. Bush stated clearly that people of America have a direct competition with people of INDIA. But if the man power of India will be created on the basis of reservation then what will be the future of our country. According to me reservation should not be based on the cast but it should be meant for the people living Below Poverty Line.
once again sir i request you please take some action for reservation bill otherwise this Politics over reservation will destroy our youth and hence our country.
thanking you .
Jai hind.


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Very interesting info for you guys at http://sujaiblog.blogspot.com
I have changed my stance after reading articles at above site.

sayan de sarkar

Hi!
THE RESERVATION POLICY IN INDIA HAS BECOME A BURNING ISSUE. THE COMMENTS MADE BY THE FELLOW WRITERS ARE REALLY APPRECIABLE.I HAVE A MIXED FELLINGS ABOUT THIS RESERVATION POLICY.ACCORDING TO ME IT IS THE EDUCATIONAL POLICY IN INDIA THAT IS TO BE BLAMED. EVEN TODAY EDUCATION IS A PREVILEDGE TO A FEW SECTION OF THE SOCIETY. THE LIGHT OF EDUCATION HAS NOT SPREAD TO LARGE SECTION OF OUR POPULATION(LEAVE ASIDE THE BACKWARD CLASSES).FOR A TIME BEING LEAVE ASIDE THE DISCUSSIONS ABOUT THE FATE OF SC/ST/OBC. WHAT ABOUT THE COMMONERS IN GENERAL.ONE CANNOT DENY THAT PEOPLE WITH WEALTH ARE THE PEOPLE WITH ULTIMATE POWER.ONE CANNOT DENY THAT IIMs AND IITs ARE FOR THE MERITORIOUS AS WELL FOR THOSE WHO HAS ENOUGH MONEY TO SHELL OUT FROM THEIR POCKET. ONE CAN ARGUE THAT THOSE WHO CANNOT AFORD IT AT ALL CAN GET THROUGH THESE INSTITUTION BY TAKING BANK LOANS. BUT CAN YOU IMAGINE THAT IT WOULD TAKE FOR HIM/HER NEARLY ONE-FOURTH OF THEIR PROFFESIONAL CARREAR TO REPAY THE DEBT!! ONE CANNOT DENY THAT MONEY IS A SOURCE OF ADDMISSION IN ANY EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONS(mind you it happens in most colleges/universities!!). SO WHAT IS THE ULTIMATE SOLUTION TO THE EVER INCREASING PROBLEM OF ECONOMIC DISPARITY, EDUCATIONAL DISPARITY AND CLASS AND CASTE DIFFERENCES? SO WHY BLAMING THE SELFISH POLITICIANS ONLY OR SHOUTING ABOUT THE RESERVATION POLICY? ACCORDING TO ME, THE AMENDMENTS SHOULD BE MADE AT THE GRASS ROOT LEVEL.MAKE EDUCATION AVALABLE FOR EVERYONE. MAKE RESERVATION IMPLEMENTED FOR THE BACKWARD CLASSES TILL THE HIGH SCHOOL. PROMOTE EDUCATION ON A MASS SCALE. RIGHT EDUCATIONAL POLICY IS THE GATEWAY TO THE SOLUTION OF POVERTY, CASTE BARRIER,UNEMPLOYMENT AND MANY MORE. GOVERNMENT SHOULD CONCENTRATE MORE IN GIVING FINANCIAL AID RATHER THAN RESERVATIONS. ONLY THEN EQUALITY CAN BE MAINTAINED IN THE SOCIETY. I WOULD BE GLAD TO RECIEVE THE VIEWS OF THE READERS AND HELPING ME IN BROADENING MY VIEWS AND IDEAS ON THIS ISSUE.

priyamvade mishra

I personally feel that there should be no reservation be it any basis.
AS a future of india and a student of class eleventh i don`t feel that my future or even the future of my sc or st classmates`is secure in the hands of such govt making vote bank oriented laws.
Just one simple question to Mr. Arjun Singh .IF HE GETS ADMIT TO AIIMS FOR EVEN A SIMPLE TREATMENT WILL HE LIKE TO BE TREATED BY A STUDENT SCORING 40%AND GETTING INTO THIS PESTIGIOUS INSTITUION THROUGH RESERVATION?OR AT THAT TIME HE`LL CHECK THE CASTE OF THE DOCTOR?
IF HE HAS A RIGHT AS A MINISTER TO GET TREATED BY TALENTED DOCTORS THEN WHY NOT THE COMMON PUBLIC?
DON`T WE HAVE A RIGHT TO SAY THAT PLZ` LET OUR FUTURE BE SECURE IN THE HANDS OF TALENTED FUTURE.
WE DON`T WANT CASTE BASED INDIA WE WANT A TALENTED INDIA WHICH IN RIGHT TERMS IS SECULAR.

Dr Kaushal Mishra

I am doctor in AIIMS if u want to do something against reservation please contact me at my email address .If possible please contact me before bill placed in parliament

Naina Raj

There has been rare instances when people have produced fake certificates for getting a job or admission in India.This problem exists all over India.So,that cannot be considered as a reason for the removal of reservation policies.Reservations are a requirement for people who have been marginalized for a very long period.We have reservation for women in India.Do you think this also needs to be removed????Who takes the advantage of women reservation in India????Caste is deeply rooted in our system, and we can't deny that there was a time when people from lower caste, had very little or no less access to economy and education compared to the forward caste.India has a very diverse population and in order to bring smooth development through equality "reservation" policies have to be considered.

anshul

i think that reservation in education is reservation of votes

roy t james

As a fellow Indian, having realized that this issue is of paramount importance for the people of India, I did try to study caste with the idea of forming a holistic view; and I happen to find that caste is the most misunderstood term in India and have placed my effort at jamesroy.50megs.com
Today we are needing reservation for more and more castes, for education, jobs etc, but, in a few generations we shall be needing some similiar arrangement for other human functions, say function of metabolism.
ROY

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Central and Private governmental jobs are hardly 1-2% of present day (2010) India's population. If you still remove half of population due to women (Im sorry for that - because present day women need offcourse job, but this is the case study and hence excuse), the % of govt employees are only 2-4% of total employable population. Hence, whatever, reservations this govt imposing cannot be worked out and cannot reach whole citizens. So, govt should be ready to provide/generate atleast 50 Core jobs directly. If they do so then they can claim they achieved something worth in this so called social/religious status. Im 200% confident that they cannot provide so much employment unless and until private/MNCs companies entering into job sector. Again, imposing reservation in private will not work out, because they bother about revenue and growth. So, they directly have to impose merit system and cannot reservation. Hence, my view to you people is that, no need to worry about this 2-4% job. I request all fellow members to improve your performance and earn good position in private/abroad. JAI HINDI !!

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