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Thursday, August 02, 2007



Why this paradox? As an insider I see the false belief among politicians,general public and the academicians that IT sector alone is the true symbol of development.
What kind of labour gets employment in the IT sector? Urban rich and the middle-class benefit out of IT boom; majority are working as IT "coolies".
To remove poverty, a return to Nehruvian industrialisation combined with Nurksian balanced growth strategy are urgently needed.Gandhian need and want minimisation are also essential.

Troy Aikman

Too late, it's just too late for India to get industrialized, your giant neighbor, China, is absorbing every single manufacturing job from the west. India just simply cannot compete with China, due to poor education and infrastructure

Too late, folks, too late

Arthur Eckart

The U.S., and other countries, are fortunate there are Indian immigrants (along with Chinese and other Asians):


"About 64% of Indian Americans have attained a Bachelor's degree or more.[5](compared to 28% nationally). Almost 40% of all Indians have a master’s doctorate or other professional degree...Indian Americans have the highest median income of any national origin group in the United States and Merrill Lynch recently revealed that there are nearly 200,000 Indian American millionaires... one-third of the engineers in Silicon Valley are of Indian descent, while 7% of valley high-tech firms are led by Indian CEOs. (Source: Silicon India Readership Survey) In 2002, there were over 223,000 Asian Indian-owned firms in the U.S., employing more than 610,000 workers, and generating more than $88 billion in revenue.[7]"

Troy Aikman

Arthur, your data are nothing but propaganda pushed by some Indian supremacists, remember the following widely cited data?

Indians are the richest immigrant class in the US, with nearly 200,000 millionaires.

38% of doctors in USA are Indians.

12% scientists in USA are Indians.

36% of NASA scientists are Indians.

34% of Microsoft employees are Indians.

28% of IBM employees are Indians.

17% of INTEL scientists are Indians.

13% of XEROX employees are Indians.


You can find this BS everywhere on the internet, often written by a "proud indian".. Here is one http://www.southasiabiz.com/2006/08/iproud_to_be_an_indian_15_amaz.html

It turns out these data are just bullshit. 36% of NASA scientists are Indian, are you freaking kidding me? Bill Gates personally rebuffed the 34% claim.

Stop the propaganda, and india is the biggest victim of brain drain, there is really nothing to be proud of sending your best to the west.


Troy Aikman 6.29 AM,

Poor infrastructure I agree, but not poor education.

10.49 AM,

We are not sending our best to the west...we spend huge amounts on their education here but they migrate and desert us due to globalisation trends and the benefits given to the non-resident Indians.I propose an NRI tax and boosting up of top-level salary in India side by side to control out migration.

Troy Aikman


what's the literacy rate in India?

Arthur Eckart

Troy, presenting mixed data from a less credible source to prove other data are false doesn't make sense. U.S. census data, which is real data, show that 77% of Indians who worked at Silicon Valley's high-tech firms in 1990 had a Bachelor's degree or higher compared to 40% for Chinese and 18% for Whites. 55% of Indians had a master's degree or higher (see first link table 2.4). There are many "Silicon Valleys" throughout the U.S. and the percentages may be similar or higher today.




Troy Aikman,

India is a federal country.Use disaggregated data on literacy.Some states like the south western state of Kerala has 100% literacy including female literacy comparable to developed western countries.


First, according to the wikipedia page, Kerala has a literacy rate of 91%, not 100%.


Second, what's your point? I am pretty sure there are have high literacy rate regions in Bangladesh as well. An overall literacy rate of 60% shows the sorry state of Indian education.

Arthur Eckart

I made an error above. 1990 Census data for Bachelor's degree or higher in Silicon Valley high tech jobs were 49% for White, 71% for Chinese, and 77% for Indians. Master's degree or higher were 18% for White, 40% for Chinese, and 55% for Indians.


Arthur, I have no problem with your data on Silicon Valley, it's the Silicon Valley for Krishna's sake. It does not reflect the current state of Indian education, Indians in the SV are the cream of the crop of 1 billion people. Of course the majority of them have post-graduate degrees.

"one-third of the engineers in Silicon Valley are of Indian descent, while 7% of valley high-tech firms are led by Indian CEOs."

If this is indeed true, dont you think the number of Indian CEOs is improportionally small? Arthur, I work for a Fortune 500 high tech company and around 10% of the research scientists are of Indian origin. Not bad, but still far from Indian dominance or even 30%. Reading all those "proud Indian's" posts, I'm just fed up with this India shining, India rising, India is the next superpower BS.

Yes, I was fooled by those "facts" too


TA 1.16 AM,
I mainly meant urban literacy.Try:


Arthur Eckart

TD, clearly some of the statistics in Southasiabiz are ridiculous. However, the Wikipedia statistics could be true. Only 1% of the U.S. population is Indian-American. A few years ago, the quota of HB1 Visas (for high-skilled workers) was raised and there's a large quota for millionaires. So, it's possible 64% of Indian-Americans have a Bachelor's degree or higher and 40% have a master's degree or higher (i.e. over 21 years of age). Also, there may be 200,000 Indian-American millionaires, which is roughly 7% of the Indian-American population (of any age). Moreover, it could be true one-third of Silicon Valley engineers are Indian descent, although 7% of valley high-tech firms are led by Indian CEOs, since not all CEOs are engineers (many are accountants, economists, biologists, etc.) and most Indian-American high-tech workers may be engineers. Initially, most Cuban-Americans were affluent and recently many high-skilled and rich Venezuelens moved to the U.S. (because of Hugo Chavez). I suspect, Chinese, who moved to the U.S. in recent years, are also more highly educated or affluent than Americans in general, etc. U.S. high-tech jobs are created faster than Americans can acquire skills. So, high-skilled foreigners are needed. I agree, Indian education standards are lower, although India's few top schools are at the highest world quality. The link below from an expert believes it's more of a "brain circulation" than a "brain drain," since "there's a healthy flow of financial and intellectual capital between California, Taiwan, and India."



It's H1B visa, and if you followed the recent H1B visa scandal, you would know that a lot of those Indian H1B visa holders are not paid that handsomely


You can dig a lot of news about this H1b scam if you are willing to, it's quite disturbing. Those Indian outsourcers are abusing the H1B system by sending cheap programmers from India. They are neither high skilled nor well paid. Again, let's not spread the false "facts" about how rich, how well educated and how powerful those Indians are. They are simply not. I am not going to rebuff every claim by you. You cannot convince anyone by arguing "it's possible", "it might be true"... It might be true that I'm Bill Gates.


people do not lose big picture..
india is 1.1 bil,that is ~20% of the world pop lives in india so you expect some tiny number of folks to do well (silicon valley/IT etc)
india adds 1 australia every year..80 % lives on less than $2/day. If a true democracy amongst so called majority literate india existed, this state of affair would invite societal revolution long back. Try to engage in doing business in india, you will flee , my friend.
This garbage of globalization induced higher GDP idea was mooted by western industry (eg. the buffoons in goldman sachs after .com collapse) and then capitalism's drive to make better profit sped up ( and hence the current gilded age for the top 0.1% in western world while a churn amidst people due to housing bust in US now (but soon to spread to bloody bubble lands of UK/ireland/Spain etc)..the ultra loose monetary policy also went hand-in-hand along w/ globalization CRAP.
Early 20th century disruptions of this sort led to world wars. Indians should not be fooled by 3yrs of unusual growth due to rampant liquidity and credit bubble despite which we have grinding poverty amongst cell-phone toting unwashed masses of india..
What a joke
And the bigger joke is that buffoons of BEAR STEARNS wish to be bailed out by govt's tax money. What kinda of capitalism is this???

Arthur Eckart

TA, right, it's H1B Visa. I'm not surprised there's some misuse, which seems to be small, given demand for visas exceeds supply. What I meant was the Wikipedia statistics are more feasible than some of the Southasiabiz statistics. Of course, if you had the time, Census data may prove or disprove the statistics. Andiron, I wouldn't say people working in Wall Street investment banks, money center banks, brokerage houses, etc. (which make large profits) are buffoons. Many of them graduated from top schools, including Indian-Americans. If Third World countries want to overproduce by buying dollars and selling their currencies, then it's appropriate for the U.S. to increase its money supply to at least partially offset U.S. underproduction (i.e. close the output gap), which has caused those Third World countries to overproduce even more. It's not a U.S. economic problem.

Arthur Eckart

Also, I may add, mutual funds, pension funds, insurance firms, etc. have been propping-up U.S. financial markets (following New York institutions) to raise GDP, which was successful. While the U.S. stock market rose from mid-2006 to mid-2007, U.S. real GDP rose from less than 1% in Q1 2007 to about 3 1/2% in Q2 2007 (the stock market correction began right after second quarter GDP was announced, although inflation was much lower than expected, the U.S. trade deficit remained near the all-time high, and the U.S. budget deficit was estimated at only $150 billion in 2007). The New York Fed has mitigated some of the hedge fund losses by exchanging dollars for mortgage-backed securites, which increased demand deposits (through high-powered money or the money multiplier, since the effective Fed Funds Rate rose from 5 1/4% to 6% on a "credit crunch"). So, it seems, Goldman Sachs, Bear Stearns, etc. were somewhat rewarded, e.g. through Citigroup and Chase (i.e. money center banks). Obviously, the Fed and New York financial institutions are working together for the benefit of the country (similar to JP Morgan before the Fed) to maintain sustainable economic growth.

Frank Weber

The reality of India:

Arthur Eckart

Frank, most people don't realize the extent of poverty in China, India, and many other developing countries. India has produced a $2,500 car recently, the Tata Nano. Currently, only 7 out of 1,000 Indians own a car. Also:

"China has 23% of the world's people on 7% of the world's arable land. China is down to 1/4 of an acre of arable land per person. That is very close to the limit of how much land is needed to grow crops to feed a person. You can't get much less than that without starving. China must import a billion tons of food annually to feed its population. That's why China has a crisis driven policy to limit their population - a policy of "one is best, at most two, never a third" and "later, longer, fewer", promoting late marriages, long intervals between births, and two child families. With these measures, China's total fertility rate is 1.8, down from 4.8 in 1970. Even with the lower birthrate, as the large group of young people entering reproductive age, China will add another 1/2 billion people by 2020."

Pollution, urban sprawl, overgrazing of livestock, overcultivation, improper irrigation techniques, etc. have resulted in "one-sixth of China’s total arable lands are polluted by heavy metals, and more than 40 percent are degenerated due to erosion and desertification." Also, about 50% of China's labor force works in agriculture (compared to less than 3% in the U.S.).

Arthur Eckart

Below is a related article about China's food prices:

China Makes New Anti-Inflation Move
Monday January 14, 2008 1:28 am ET

BEIJING (AP) -- China's cabinet on Monday sharply increased penalties for price-fixing, expanding an anti-inflation campaign that has failed to cool a surge in politically sensitive food costs.

Food costs soared by 18.2 percent in November, pushing the overall monthly inflation rate to 6.9 percent, its highest level in 11 years.

The surge in food prices has been especially painful for China's poor majority, who spend up to half their incomes on food.

Suppliers of meat, eggs and other food have been ordered to report price increases over 5 percent to the government.

Premier Wen Jiabao warned last week that with global prices for crude oil, grain and other commodities rising, pressure for Chinese prices to rise "is still great."

Local authorities have been ordered to pay subsidies to the poor to cushion the blow of higher food costs.


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