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Sunday, March 19, 2006

Comments

John Booke

Stormy specifically states that the Chinese cannot afford the products it "exports." Probably secondary to more "features" and higher "quality" requirements in the US market. For instance a Geely car sold in China would not meet US standards. That car sells for $7,000 US. Wonder how many Americans would buy at that price if US standards were relaxex?

ElamBend

One of the shocks to British troops when they came to America during the American Independance war was the material wealth of Americans. Right now, many Chinese are experiencing the same phenomena. I'd be willing to bet that the average Chinese city consumer has a purchasing power (in terms of goods) that excedes some western countries. Also, much of what is made in China for export is sold out the back door of Chinese factories in pirate form.

ElamBend

Also, Wal-Mart is expanding its stores in China as quite a clip. (Imagine the savings, their suppliers are right down the block!) When a Wal-Mart opened the the rural area that I grew up in, it brought material wealth that was before only available and hour's drive (at least) away. The town with the Wal-Mart has significantly expanded its commercial retail developement and Walmart has built a new store with a large implement store taking over the old store building.
Don't forget, few countries benefit from having a large choice of products. The existence of Wal-Mart in China means that the Chinese are now starting to enjoy such a thing.

Stormy

John Booke:

Exactly right. I merely used the "average" wage Business Week provided. The math is inescapable. The “average” Chinese simply cannot be buying many of the products it is exporting to America, especially those produce by American firms in China.

New Economists simply cannot have it both ways. How does it square the Business Week data with its latest post?

Either Business Week is wrong about the "average" or there is some mysterious quantum effect here that is unnoticed. The only possibility is the rise of credit cards and loans.

There is much to be argued here. But for now I will keep the argument as focused as possible.

Stormy

Looking at the article that New Economists now cites, I would ask the following:

1) Is sampling 70,000 consumers in major cities a statistically accurate slice of a population of 1.3 billion people? With my crude math, the survey covers 7 people for every 1.3 million. I would suggest there is more hype than accuracy in the China Daily article.

2) Note that the survey does not touch those living outside the major cities—a vast population.

We can now see the silliness of the claim that 75% of Chinese now use water heaters. Let us suppose that the average family size in China is approximately 3.39 (as if 2002 according to the China Daily). Doing the math, I come up with 385,250,737 water heaters. Who got that contract?

Time to separate PR from hard facts.

Arthur Eckart

I agree. From the statistics I read about China, there are roughly 1 billion peasants earning less than $3 a day and half of them earn less than $1 a day. Also, I agree, random samples taken in relatively high income cities would be inaccurate for the population. The Chinese government could easily manipulate statistics, to present a false view, for greater leverage in the global economy. It has no accountability.

Marcelo

Can someone help me to find hourly wages and/or labour costs statistics in China?

Arthur Eckart

Here's a link for Chinese hourly earnings in 2002: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/08/art3exc.htm

Arthur Eckart

Here's another link about Chinese wages. It seems, Judith Banister is a leading expert in this area: http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/dec2004/nf2004122_6762_db039.htm

Marty

Here is a nice breakout of the current distribution of wealth in China, from the Economist.

Chang

Of course chinese workers can afford Chinese goods....

I am from a 'middle-class' (chinese standard) family in a northeastern city, not so affluent comparing to Beijing or Shanghai. We have 2 TV sets, desktop PC, audio system, fridge , dvd player.. you name it.. My dad is one of the 'cool dads', he bought a digital video recorder and laptop last year. My parents just bought a retirement apartment in southern china (in cash, chinese people are not used to mortgage yet)..I have never worked and am still in school working on my PhD, thus I contributed nothing to my family, only college expenses and stuffs they put on me.

Now, I am not bragging about my parents, nor am I bragging about china.. I am just saying that please keep in mind that Chinese people save like crazy.. my parents put almost 90% of their income into their bank account and buy some 'big' stuffs from time to time.

All in all, maybe cars are still thought as 'luxury goods' for most of the Chinese people, but other than that, you can find most of the stuffs in an american home(I've been to quite a few) in an above average chinese home as well, maybe not in the same quality..(smaller size or capacity, etc).. you get the picture


Chang

To Arthur Eckart,

Please get your stats right.. There are NOT 1 billion peasants in China.. you got that totally wrong.

The official stats is around 600-700 million rural population, roughly half of the Chinese population .. Now, all the workers in those 'sweatshops' are from rural area.. and they are NOT counted as city citizens if you understand the chinese system.. And all of the construction workers are from rural area, too.. you do the maths.. actually a lot of the farmlands are now run by old people left in the villages coz the youth are working in the cities

By the way, it seems that you have some problem with the Chinese communist goverment.. Having lived in the US for several years, I totally understand. I am a big fan of free speech and free press.. But the truth is that they are doing all right economically.. yes, I travelled a lot in China and that's what I have witnessed

Santosh

Chang, ignore Arthur Eckart. He is the resident China-basher on this blog. Nothing you say will convince him of his doom and gloom on China.

Part of what is sustaining the high growth rates in China today is the domestic market.

Kelvin

Hi, Mr. Arthur Echart,
Have you visited China or Inida? I have been living in China, Europe, and USA for many years. I think that the best way to learn international economy is to visit different countries by yourself. Text books, TV, and newspapers often give you misleading information.

Deni

I agree with Mr. Arthur Echart to some extent.

A little bit on my background first. I grew up in an affluent city in China and went to college in US. I'm now living in poverty-striken midwest China, working for an NGO. I've also traveled extensively to other parts of rural China. So I think I can offer you a reliable picture of the "average Chinese," without dwelling into the official statistics.

Some crude observations:
1. In midwest cities, a typical high-school or college graduate here earns 1200yuan (USD150) per month.
2. Civil servants (policemen, department head at county level, etc) earn less than 1000yuan per month. (i.e. excluding embezzlement)
3. Even in the "urbanized rural areas" (e.g. the centre of several rural towns), not all the families have refrigerators, but a majority of households do have cell phones.
4. In the real rural areas (which still accounts for half of the country's population), monthly household income is as low as 200yuan(US$25). Refrigerators are extremely rare. Many households do have TV, but many of those are still black-and-white TVs.
5. The price of a cell phone is approx 1000yuan (US$125).
6. For various reasons, many who worked in sweatshops in cities did return to their rural homes after a few years. i.e. The migration to cities is only temporary in many cases.

I wish I could provide more "scientific" data...There are numerous articles written by researchers and academics documenting the economic conditions of rural China. (Available only in Chinese though, unfortunately...)

The life of the median Chinese won't be imaginable even for people in coastal China.

I hope the above helps you draw a more accurate conclusion.

nigel

It is said that if China had the same frequency of newspaper deliveries per person as in America there would be no more trees in the world. Also if China and India were to consume as much per person as America it would require two whole new earths. You get the point? It is impossible for a nation like China to consume as much as a person in America at this present time; it just wouldn't be sustainable. However maybe the world can still support a whole heap of materialistic and wealthy Chinese, but Indians as well? I don't think so. For there to be rich people there needs to be poor people.

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